Re: Desktop NetBSD needs your help

[David Sheryn <david%chromiq.org@localhost>]

Aleksej Saushev wrote:

> der Mouse <mouse%Rodents-Montreal.ORG@localhost> writes:
> 
>>> 2. It would be nice to have w3m in base system, so that user could
>>> read the Guide without reboot or resorting to another machine.
>>> 5. Having the way to install reasonable quality desktop system is a
>>> big plus anyway, you can't do that with NetBSD right now.  Last time
>>> I ran into the need of setting up such system, I spent unreasonably
>>> long (by modern standards) time on it.
>>> 6. Installation is still pretty hard, especially at fdisk/disklabel
>>> step, the whole concept of BSD label is hard enough to novice users,
>>> 9.2. In too many cases [...] forcing novice user into [...]
>> I don't think NetBSD is appropriate for novice user desktop use, and I
>> see that as about as much of a problem as it is that my hacksaw isn't
>> appropriate for driving screws.  The world has plenty of screwdrivers;
>> I'd much prefer NetBSD focus on making a good hacksaw (largely because
>> I don't see anyone else making hacksaws nearly as good).
> 
> How do you expect new users to appear then? Do you think that NetBSD
> users are born experts?

New users are not supposed to to use NetBSD.  You have to be invited, by
secret handshake, to submit yourself to the initiation rights to the
illuminati.  If successful, you will be permitted to enter the lowest ranks of
the initiated.  Progress will depend on how badly dmaged a disk you've rescued
using fsck and whether you can write a device driver using "cat" as your
editor (extra points for knowing that "echo *" works when your /bin/ls is
corrupt.)  Window-managers are for wimps--screen[*] is suffient. Anybody who
has ever used Windows(TM) or linux(TM) need not apply... :-(


> In particular, do you expect that newcomer learns the Guide by heart?
> Is fdisk/bsdlabel documented that well, so that it can be learnt by
> heart before installation? Is interface that good?
> 
>> Of course, like everyone else (well, except core/board/etc), I don't
>> get to dictate which way NetBSD goes except to the extent I take it
>> there.  This, I think, is largely why most of my comments about
>> NetBSD's direction have been negative, because they've all been in
>> response to people who want to change things, and what I think we need
>> to do is to stop trying to change our direction and concentrate on
>> doing well what we do well.  If you want a desktop system, you know
>> where to find it - and I use that wording despite, not because of, the
>> derogatory tone the original carried in its context.  (At work, I had
>> occasion to set up a GUI desktop, and used FreeBSD; some would see this
>> as a failing of NetBSD, but I don't, any more than I see it as a
>> failing of my hacksaw that I don't reach for it to drive screws.)
> 
> Why do you resist changes? The world has changed since 90's.
> Some things proved to be inefficient, even dangerous.
> Do you think that we should leave inefficient ones as is
> just because changes don't make you happy at once?
> 
> One of NetBSD advantages noted by newcomers is its high-quality
> documentation, and it is documentation quality what can be checked
> by novice users first. Without good documentation you can't tell,
> why NetBSD is better than Linux.
> 

I really don't believe some of what I've been reading here... :-(


/DHS

[*]  Actually, since it's GPL'ed, it's probably not allowed either...

-- 
david%chromiq.org@localhost

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - Wow! what a ride!"