On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, der Mouse wrote:

> > 	* Monolithic /etc/rc is gone, it won't be back. Deal.
> 
> Ain't gone noplace on my systems.  Never will, not as long as I'm
> running anything UNIXish.
> 
	I believe there are more people who want the finer granularity of
	individual startup and shutdown systems than those who want
	the ease (for them) of maintenance of a single script.
	Luke's work has an option to spit out a single large rc script,
	which indicates the latter set has not been forgotten. I agree
	Frank could have phrased it less bluntly.

> > 	* As I've said before, please don't start about the "BSD way"
> > 	  of doing things.
> 
> Why not?  *You* don't care about it, so those who do have to shut up?
> 
	On that path lies Michael Sokolov's Quasijarus
		http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
	Seriously - rc.conf, posix compatibility, scsipi, bus_space,
	pcmcia/usb with the ability to detach devices, IPv6, 64bit support
	and a bunch more are all items that were not 'original BSD', but
	they are aspects that make NetBSD a better system.

	rc.conf is no more 'the BSD way', than splitting up rc into
	individual subsystem controlling files, but they both intended
	to ease administration.

> Indeed, it may be the SysV shard that finally drives me away from
> Net"BSD".  I don't know yet.
> 
	I see a distinct lack of directories full of S93bob and K23alfred 
	in this new scheme (though I understand they could be generated
	as an option). So it is no more SysV than it is 'traditional' BSD.
	Instead it hopes to be a better system that has learned from both.

> You mean like how the Project just screwed over everyone who dares to
> run a system in any way other than "run sysinst, run pkg_add"?  Or is
> that not an issue for you, just for the admins in question?
> 
	In what way - are you no longer able to control your systems with
	rc.conf and add your magic to rc.local?
	If you run the script that converts evrything into one large
	rc file and leave it that way, how has it screwed you?

> Yes, I'm angry.  Angry, disappointed, sad, abandoned.  I was foolish
> enough to let myself think that NetBSD actually cared about the last
> three letters of its name.  This led me to invest a lot of dedication
> and caring in it, because I care about BSD...and now the Project has
> taken another step, and a very big one, away from it.  I can't really
> expect the Project to care about one lone gadfly's opinion, but that
> doesn't make it any easier to take its suddenly turning around and
> telling me "screw you".

	I'm sorry you feel like that. From one perspective BSD 'died' when
	the CSRG closed up shop. Frrom another its grown into something
	better, in places of which the original could never have thought
	(mips handhelds IPv6 with IPSEC mounting NFS wireless), and still
	plays a good /usr/games/rogue...

	The new rc system is not perfect. To my mind it seems to be a good
	solution with some issues that need to be resolved, such as:

		a) Package rc scripts. Should either be enabled
	 	   automatically, or require manual rc.conf x=YES. Since
		   both are wanted we should probably have a per machine
		   switch.

		b) Those who just want one rc file
		   Maybe we can get away with a command that converts a
		   system back to this for the supplied scripts. Maybe
		   not - we need to know.

		c) Too much Magick
		   I think we should ship with an /etc/rc.README file
		   that gives a good enough overview for a knowledgeable
		   {NetBSD-1.4,SysV} sysadmin to add or disable a startup
		   script. Again, maybe this will be enough

		d) Everything else
		   There are bound to be others. People should speak up
		   and enumerate them.

		David/absolute