Re: Why is Desktop NetBSD a threat to NetBSD?

[Alex Goncharov <alex-goncharov%comcast.net@localhost>]

[ Speaking as a FreeBSD user of three years, a FreeBSD port
  maintainer, the official CMUCL-for-FreeBSD builder, a recent NetBSD
  trier, these lists' lurker, and a recent Xorg hater... ]

So, I've been casually watching these NetBSD lists for some three
weeks, when the two related issues of the "NetBSD Desktop" and "ee"
started to be debated.  Fascinating.

You guys are crazy.  Not all of you, of course: the ones who think
that adding the fancy desktop and ee will win you users -- the ones
you'll want to win.

Speaking from the heart, don't take offense.  You have all the freedom
to spend your time doing what you want.  I am just reflecting on the
sanity of the idea.

So, I've been using Debian for many years.  Gnome-less and KDE-less.
Hate Red Hat with all my heart; their UIs didn't win me over.

I switched to FreeBSD not because it has a fancier desktop. For other
reasons.  Plus the ease of avoidance the intrusive Gnome.

I am considering using NetBSD (and perhaps resurrecting CMUCL here)
for reasons totally opposite to NetBSD being a comfortable graphic
environment.  Well, perhaps the idea of "Graphic NetBSD" makes NetBSD
a less attractive environment for me.  I want to rely on the OS
stability and performance for years ahead.  Don't tell me that making
it suitable for dummies is not in conflict with that -- I know
(although don't believe) .

The idea that Windows and/or Linux and/or FreeBSD users and
not-yet-users will rush to NetBSD as a graphically comfortable
environment is totally ridiculous (to me).  You are late, late, late
for that game (although there is a chance that I am wrong.)  Those who
want "Unix with Desktop" have it already (with many options, including
the pretty good recent Open Solaris.)

Of course, NetBSD will move in that direction, because this is
progress.

,--- You/Andrew (Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:34:35 +1100) ----*
| > 
| > But I think from the original mail, if I'm reading it right, making
| > Desktop NetBSD was mostly just to save the time of having to go out
| > and download and install desktop software, not to Solve All Computer
| > Problems With A Slick Interface.
| > 
| > I think the scope can quickly get out of hand if elaborate integration
| > is expected.
| 
| My point was that the scope will get out of hand anyway.

Yup-yup-yup.  Gnome folks essentially hijacked X on FreeBSD,
especially with the Xorg upgrade two weeks ago.  It was not reported
in the news, just a private opinion, based on a two-week's struggle to
undo the damage to my systems, with diligent learning of current
Makefiles, build requirements, package dependencies etc.

| You can't just help people to download GNOME and install it,
| because GNOME (and now xorg itself) needs hal, and hal is the
| crux of the problem.

Oh, yeah!..  The screams are flying over the FreeBSD land for the past
two weeks... the word "HAL" should be Googled for...  

| You can't just install linux-hal, because it wants to talk to the
| underlying system in the linux way (whatever that is).  *someone*
| will have to support netbsd-hal in pkgsrc, (along with all of the
| XML-based configuration mechanisms that go with it), and that is
| going to be a large and on-going job.

You bet.

| Maybe it's worth it.  The FreeBSD GNOME folk seem to think it
| is, and are working on it with great vigor.

Oh, how I wish they didn't have that vigor!..

Search freebsd-ports-bugs%FreeBSD.org@localhost and 
freebsd-ports%FreeBSD.org@localhost,
in postings within the last two weeks, for any combination of words
"Xorg, HAL, disaster ("desaster"), USB, mouse, keyboard, unhappy" and
so on.  Draw your conclusions.

My resolution now?  I am not doing any more Xorg upgrades -- I
reverted to the one (Xorg 1.4) we had before the disaster, will stay
there (without HAL, of course) and am not interested in discussing new
Xes anymore. 

If I get to use NetBSD even in half-earnest, and the desktop
innovations get in my way, even loom ahead -- well, I'll probably turn
away from it.  Nobody will miss me, of course (although that goes
against the stated goal of attracting new users).

| I'm just saying that it's not as simple as it sounds, and the
| implications are large and on-going.

And I think you are saying it well...(My "you" is not "you" :-)

| As others have said, if you don't want to bite off this much pie,
| you can probably still make something that looks like a desktop by
| staying with traditional window managers like WindowMaker or fvwm,
| and leaving folk to do their own system administration, same as it
| ever was.  I'm not sure that that will satisfy the people aiming for
| Desktop NetBSD, though.  I think that a "Desktop" system (of today)
| really needs the "right thing" to happen when someone inserts a CD
| or a USB drive...

Wishing you all the best -- I am still hoping to master and enjoy
NetBSD.

Hey, and don't flame me -- I thought an honest opinion from a
potential user may prove beneficial.  Plus the information on
experiences in other lands.

-- Alex -- alex-goncharov%comcast.net@localhost --

/*
 * Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.
 * 
 * -- Joseph Stalin
 */