On 2012-04-13 01:11, Mindaugas Rasiukevicius wrote:
Johnny Billquist<bqt%softjar.se@localhost> wrote:On 2012-04-12 22.08, Matthew Mondor wrote:On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:19:33 +0200 Johnny Billquist<bqt%softjar.se@localhost> wrote:Like I said, I guess I can't be bothered. I've given up. This ain't BSD anymore, except for the deceptive name. And I've run out of energy trying to improve the world. I'll just recommend anyone who ask me to just go and install Linux instead, since it's at least coherent in its brokenness.(with-gospel-mode Was the "proper" BSD: 4.4BSD, 386BSD, NetBSD 1.4T, NetBSD 4? It probably depends on the context and hardware, I can appreciate old hardware and emulators and archives of old operating systems myself. If NetBSD had not moved with the times, it'd also be using aout, would have bad performance compared to other operating systems, would have no synchronous multi-processor support, no POSIX threads and interfaces support, no way to allow to load non-BSD-licensed code (i.e. an eventual ZFS module), no power management, no support for large disks, unbareably long fsck times, no 64-bit or amd64 support, no DRI, no kauth, no PUFFS, no pkgsrc, no modern testing support, no sysinst, no Xen, a clear-text password database, services all running as root, no SSH, IPv6, LDAP, etc... And it'd also unfortunately be dead by now, require old compilers to build, old hardware to run and old protocols to use... But I now run it on firewalls, servers and "desktop" workstations on i686 and amd64, and am thankful to those who made this constant progress possible. ) :)Funny you should say that, while a CVS checkout of all of the NetBSD source tree have grown in time from about 20 minutes to about 5 hours on a VAX-8650 as we move from NetBSD 2 to NetBSD 5. Did we really improve performance, or did we only just get faster computers, while the code itself got slower? Because I doubt you can claim a 10 time size increase of the source code tree...You have rather interesting understanding of what BSD is. Indeed, what is BSD in year 2012? Probably most of us in the NetBSD community value tradition and relatively conservative approach to system development. However, ain't innovation and adaptation to the new realities BSD?
I don't know what "BSD" is nowadays, which I think is the problem. What is BSD now? Yet another Linux wannabe? All I see is attempts to become more like Linux. But you'll never be a better Linux than Linux.
Conservative approach to system development? That used to be the case, but I think not anymore. Now we have different tiers of hardware, because we want to develop faster and more agile, and can't be bothered with getting all systems updated, nor then take into accounts that some solutions really don't fit well with the approach of portability. Admittedly, if you just want to focus on the bleeding edge, then there is really just one architecture you have to worry about, and plenty of resources to waste.
So, no, I don't think I have an "interesting understanding of what BSD is". I don't have any understanding at all. I only see what it is not.
Yes, our source tree is larger and system is slower on your VAX. You can compare SunOS 2.5 and Solaris 11, Linux 2.2 and 3.x or any other system, which is actively developed, and find the same. Systems grow features, their architecture and design evolve together with the industry.
I see growth, but not much else. XML, property lists, PAM, kernel auth... It grows a lot of warts, but almost none of that actually means my systems work any different than 20 years ago. Only slower.
NetBSD evolves. This is not a conservation project. The main goal of the project is not a support for old hardware either. If you want 4.4BSD or 2.11BSD, you know where to get it.
Already have that, thank you. And yes, I find pleasure in playing with old hardware. Others should be concerned about the fact that current software have become so much less useful on those systems, since they are a good test of the progress of development. Things are so much more painfully showing when there are issues, on some of those old systems. By getting rid of that "baggage" you are actually throwing out your best testing grounds. But hey! I guess some call that progress.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt%softjar.se@localhost || Reading murder books
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