David Brownlee wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Neil A. Carson wrote:
> >
>         In a word, choice.
> 
>         NetBSD buys that end user being able to play with different
>         hardware, frequently obsolete, but sometimes not - mips based
>         WindowsCE handhelds and the Dreamcast (with more development)
>         come into mind. It also buys a cleaner system with which to
>         administrate and learn.
> 
>         Not to everyone's taste, and I don't expect NetBSD to be able to
>         compete head on with large linux distributions on 'tick box'
>         features, but the unix user market is growing, and there is a
>         small percentage of that market that would enjoy NetBSD more.

How many tick boxes can we get on number of supported platforms :) 
Oddly enough it feels very much more like AIX than other unices, or
should that be AIX is more like BSD than sys v?  Either way I like it.
 
>         Having an easier installation and better documentation will
>         increase that small percentage, which in turn increased the
>         chance of better documentation and suchlike.

I was quite surprised to see the 1.5 alpha one, it's been curses'd ;) 
Last install I did was 1.2 :)  And it was a lot easier to install over
the arm linux cd I got a few weekends back.

> > Fine, NetBSD hasn't been commercialised and some could argue this works
> > for it as well as against it. But too many important buzzword features
> > are missing for the tecky user (who's a bit more knowledgable than Joe
> > user) who likes something "cool." At the end of the day, NetBSD really
> > wins if you need to build, develop for it, and maybe port it.
> >
>         Its also a haven for those who feel code quality should be
>         valued above hype. The only thing NetBSD could be said to hype
>         _is_ code quality, and that is not entirely without basis in
>         fact. There are many important buzzword features that NetBSD
>         has picked up - some before other free OSs, and more will be
>         picked up as time progresses.

That's something I like about it, the fact that we don't strive towards
being the biggest, just being the best, I'm sure that there's a lot of
free *BSD boxes out there, just that no one raves about them.
 
> > I've sold many hundreds of NetBSD/arm32 CDs over the years, though
> > mainly before Linux's rise in popularity. These days, all people want is
> > Linux. Fine, NetBSD could probably be ported to yet another ARM platform
> > that Linux doesn't go on, but to win another 4 users, what's the point?
> >
>         Because those people would prefer to run NetBSD on those boxes,
>         and those doing the port enjoy the project. Why have any other
>         linux distributions when redhat can be used by all?
> 
>         Also it may just help someone later who wants to use a non GPLed
>         OS on an embedded system that shares some of the same hardware.

Which is perhaps an appealing factor, much as the GPL is an interesting
idea, the idea of one day possibly making money from something appeals
more to human nature ;)  However NetBSD has a reliance on GPL as well in
that we use gcc (amongst other gpl software)
 
> > So I think trying to promote NetBSD on the Acorn machine vs. Linux on
> > the Acorn machine won't make much difference. The Linux PR is better,
> > the Linux features are higher in number, and the Linux distributions are
> > easier to use for new users (not sure on the ARM, but the minority
> > architectures will probably follow what happens to the majority, at
> > least in terms of popularity etc). SuSE 6.4's admin and installation
> > environments, combined with journaling, bundled office applications etc.
> > make the system great for a user unfamiliar with UNIX as they don't have
> > to chuck themselves in at the deep end.
> 
>         Yes - linux has picked up a very pretty admin interface, behind
>         which hides a swap of the foulest nature. Pray to god you never
>         have to do anything other than follow the obvious of admin tasks,
>         or you are in for an unhappy time of wading through it all.

Anyone used smit on AIX?  now that's interesting, it'll happily live
with your style of admin, albeit hacking the /etc files, using smit,
using cmd line utils, whatever, it's all intergrated/copes with what you
throw at it.

Having tried to play with stuff in Redhat 6.2, I got somewhat lost,
perhaps the days of hand editing etc files on linux are over...
 
> > In any case, I think the whole Linux thing is way overrated too. All
> > this "yeah, we're slamming Microsoft" crap and slashdotties is just
> > pathetic. I mean, the platform doesn't even have a decent debugger, a
> > bad compiler (no insult to those who work on it of course, it's just
> > nobody unpaid can afford to re-invent such a big wheel) or even a decent
> > web browser!!! For me, anyway, the toolchain and browser are the most
> > important things! And on my machines at work, NT handles load much
> > smoother than Linux, and runs the same X-Windows and all the unix tools
> > I've come to love anyway as Linux does---it just runs them better. Fine,
> > it might not be free, but I'd buy the nice car rather than getting a
> > free clapped out one.

I've had surprises on NT, MS has started to really concentrate on the
quality of it's software, or certainly the server end stuff, eg SQL
server 7, if only in terms of ease of use/managability, in some cases it
might not perform as well as oracle, but it's a darn sight less cryptic.
 
>         The Free unix world and NT both have a lot to learn from each
>         other, but in how to do things, and how to not do things.

Oddly enough I'm lead to believe that the core of NT, (the kernel) is
really nice, it's all the pretty front end bits that mess it up (my work
has a NT source code license)
 
>         One thing the free unix world does well is using the community.
>         If the NetBSD/arm32 community (I'm planning on counting myself
>         among that again when I get my RiscPC back from the 'States :),
>         has time to help testing and debugging, please step forward now...

I believe we may have an advantage here, in that Risc os is costing a
fair amount to upgrade, so people may start looking for something else,
bit like the arm26 port is on a now old bit of kit, that can't upgrade
past risc os 3.11.  If you can sell a CD for a tenner to people and a
pamphlet with easy to follow guidelines we'd probably have some takers.

Perhaps getting some machines together (anyone for a network of them :)
and seeing if we can get a cheap/free bit of space at the next Acorn
show might help, perhaps even someone doing a bit in the theatre (I
believe the epsom show is in 2-3 months)  Have a few CD's to buy (and
take orders for more, be more sensible to take orders/pre-orders than do
more than needed)  Does mean we'd need a cd sorting out with X on it as
well, or those used to the gui of Risc os will be lost.  If we could get
mozilla on it, (or some other browser) and instructions for setting up
an internet link we'd be onto a winner as currently you need to buy a
web browser and connection software for risc os.

Cheers,
Chris